Real world difference between an M3 and a CSL...

[shane@mbtech]

Originally Posted by funtime

I'm in Crawley unfortunately

Turn in is one of the things the guys at Munich said is so much better than the standard M3 - I know they have a different steering rack, but is alot of the turn in just down to the standard CSL geo settings i.e the negative camber etc?

If you changed the M3 suspension and dialled in the same settings wouldn't this geo and turn-in capability be achievable with very little work?

If anyone is near by that and wouldn't mind having a chat and taking me out in theirs that would be much appreciated though

The CSL has a quicker rack, so turn in seems sharper, in terms of feel it is far different, in terms of track time, there will only be the odd corner, chicane where you see a difference in time, not much at all.

A standard CSL, feels similar to a modded M3, a modded CSL, feels better still.

NO they are not the quickest or best car out there, but they are very very very good.

[shane@mbtech]

Originally Posted by shimmy

yer have to drive them feckers at 120%

Am I still on for oulton Shimmy,

Ill get me ards booked if so

[funtime]

Originally Posted by shimmy

where is Crawley?

I was at M Legends this morning!

Just the other side of the M23 to East Grinstead

Originally Posted by lawsy

That explains everything then Shim, besides you have the MX5 now for 100% attack



Just a joke, but really if you need M track on track then you will not be fast fast IMO.

I did do yes, sadly not a csl owner no more, only time I used M track, was pissing down rain on track and for first few sessions only. Then it was sideways , I really learnt alot about the breakaway points with dsc off, esp in the wet, I then put the lesson learnt to use on dry track, making me faster.

M track will not save a physics defying spin, if you cant catch yourself what M track stops, then yes you will need it.

Some corners a little spin up helps, others not so, but you soon learn which corners they are.

M track is ok, but its a very primative system, compared to ferrari system which can make anyone look like a legend, it is in the ice age.

But if you are slowly learning and new to M3 and rwd then its a good stepping stone.

I was brought up on rwd so I like a bit of arse action, well so the rumours say anyhow

That makes me kick myself in some ways, I did a track day at Silverstone in the wet yesterday and left the DSC on for the whole day as it was flashing everywhere and the track was very very slippery...could have learnt alot from it though I guess!

This is my second RWD car now, and the one before was my e36 M3 with no traction, although I just got used to that, but having a fwd in-between has got me out of the steer from the rear habbits

Originally Posted by lawsy

The CSL has a quicker rack, so turn in seems sharper, in terms of feel it is far different, in terms of track time, there will only be the odd corner, chicane where you see a difference in time, not much at all.

A standard CSL, feels similar to a modded M3, a modded CSL, feels better still.

NO they are not the quickest or best car out there, but they are very very very good.

Oh right so it is just the rack then... well the CSL they have coming in soon has KW V3's and AP's all round so it's sounding like it'll be very hard to resist...

[toofastforyou]

i remember when the csl was released and so many people sold them back to the dealer cos they couldnt see what all the fuss was about. until of course people realised that comparing the two is like comparing chalk and cheese.

i have been driving the e46 chassis for 10 years. i have owned 5 e46 m3s, 2 at the same time! i had the coupe first, then the vert, and then a csl with the vert.

i tuned both the coupe and the vert with: tein edfc suspension (i know but it was back in the day!), gruppe m ram air and ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, dms remap, rear differential 3.9:1, rogue pulleys, front and rear ac shnitzer strut braces (vert doesnt fit rear strut brace) and both with 100 shot of nos. the coupe i sold to my cousin so it was always close by. the first csl i got i put tein edfc suspension, gruppe m ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, front and rear strut brace, rear differential 3.9:1 and dms remap. no nos.

the vert could keep up with the coupe no problem except when taking bends at 120mph+. in fact 0-40mph the vert was the fastest out of all of them as it is heavier and could get the power down better.

the coupe kept up with the csl but not easily, and eventually the csl would lose the coupe. there is a reason why a stock csl is 32secs quicker round the ring than a stock e46 m3 coupe, and only 2 secs slower than the e92 m3 gts (all 3 cars driven by the same driver horst von saurma before any of you start going on about them not being driven by drivers of equal talent).
its not just the steering rack or the extra power or the suspension or the weight loss- its the whole package. all the mods work in perfect harmony to provide the driver with one of the most enthralling, connected driving experiences around.

yes you can tune a coupe to be as fast or even faster than a csl, but do the same to a csl and the tuned coupe wont see which way you went in the csl. the money you will spend to make the coupe equal to a stock csl, you might as well buy a csl. even then it still wont be as good as the csl has been modified by bmw to be very special, if you think you can do a better job with the coupe, by all means try. the saying so close yet so far springs to mind.

[toofastforyou]

and regarding the dsc, always have it switched off. just be careful, respect the car, learn the limits in that way and you will soon master the m3. i had my lambda sensor go and the dash lit up like a christmas tree, i had no abs and zero traction (even when you turn the traction off it is still working ever so slightly)- i didnt fix it for 18 months.

[titan]

I've had two M3s and now a CSL.

Being honest - "real world" difference in terms of A to B on the roads? Nothing really assuming both M3 and CSL have same tyres. On the roads you don't (shouldn't?) be reaching the limits of brakes. The "real world experience" is different though, CSL just sounds more raw which adds to the illusion of speed.

Track? Well, both cars need modifying to make them sustainable on track. I'd argue that if you stripped both cars, same tyres/suspension/brakes then again, going to be fook all in it.

The deciding factor is just working out what you want it for, how much cash you have etc. The CSL is a rare beast on the roads whereas E46 are still very common. If you like the idea of taking good care of a car and having something different, CSL is ace. Although bear in mind that if used as a daily driver you're going to be far more narked if someone dings it in a carpark etc. You also can't get away from the impressive price hike a CSL demands over its equivalent mileage/condition M3.

You mentioned the girlfriend - remember that CSL seats don't adjust and the suspension can seem hard compared to modern armchairs so this may not win any favours.

If you were going to completely strip (ie devalue, or "ruin" to some) a car, do it with an M3. If you want a fast road car that looks the business and is also capable on track, CSL with brakes/suspension will be hard to beat.

Although - I did the Andy Walsh carlimits day yesterday with my brother. On Andy's "circuit" he punted the CSL round in 52 seconds, and my brothers crappy little 1.8 mx5 in 54 seconds. His circuit is essentially doing short blasts between cones and back again, so isn't representative of a track, but is probably similar to blasting between the roundabouts at milton keynes. Makes you think....

Anyhow, sounds like you want a decent ride for the road, either will do that nicely.

[titan]

Originally Posted by toofastforyou

there is a reason why a stock csl is 32secs quicker round the ring than a stock e46 m3 coupe, and only 2 secs slower than the e92 m3 gts (all 3 cars driven by the same driver horst von saurma before any of you start going on about them not being driven by drivers of equal talent).

Tyres. Pretty sure they test the cars as you'd expect to buy them from the dealer and I'm almost 100% they ran the CSL round the 'ring on cups.

32 seconds is less than half a second per corner given there are so many of the damn things :-)

[shimmy]

Originally Posted by titan

Tyres. Pretty sure they test the cars as you'd expect to buy them from the dealer and I'm almost 100% they ran the CSL round the 'ring on cups.

32 seconds is less than half a second per corner given there are so many of the damn things :-)

Tyres maybe 1/3

Weight 1/3

Suspension 1/3

[DuncanR]

Originally Posted by funtime

all I am trying to figure out is if I will get any real benefit round a track from a CSL over my M3 once I've spent some money improving it, besides it feeling more 'special'.

Decisions decisions...

But at the end of the track day ... you will still be going home in an M3 .....

[DuncanR]

Originally Posted by funtime

I think I just need to drive a CSL, although I just want to think about my options before I drive one - I dont want the carbon airbox howl blinkers to take hold of me and buy the CSL there and then on impulse!

You can drive mine if you are around this area funtime ... me and your GF can wait and eat shit sanwiches until you come back ..... best make quite a few of them sandwiches !!