Super sprint Manifold (RHD) - Page 2

shane@mbtech · 04-03-2010, 10:57 AM

My headers are on and its being mapped as I type, I will let you all know the results.

Although mine is a bog standard M3 so Im only expecting 370 max, coupled with my full system and carbon airbox, csl spec except for the cams.

But put a standard csl on a dyno and it will not be 360bhp prob 345-350.

People do get drawn into peak power talk, A well mapped 345bhp peak will beat a poor mapped 370bhp peak powered car, esp on track.

Its all in the mapping.

mattCSLnut · 04-03-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmy

id be happy with 380bhp

There's an easier way of getting 380 BHP

Dan · 04-03-2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glendog74

Reluctantly, i find myself agreeing with Shim again!

My concern would also be the cost outlay versus power gain returns. Presumably this bit of kit works best with a full exhaust setup and ECU remap - not cheap as we all know.

I already have the full SS exhaust solution minus race cats so it is an option, but at £1600 - a rather costly one. I might be persuaded in a discounted group buy of course... (Cue ridiculously long and protracted Manifold Group Buy thread!)

I thought you only had an SS back box Rob, do you have other sections as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmy

id be happy with 380bhp

Wouldn't we all!

Thorney · 04-03-2010, 11:11 AM

I'm sure you can filter through the sales mode here

but genuinely this is the best power modification I've done for the CSL. The story is this, I tested a couple of RHD cars that came over here for remaps (usual full exhaust, stock headers) and all same as LHD ones we've done. Then about a year later the same customer came back (he 's from France) with the SS header and wanted the car looked over again. I ran it on the dyno (same map) and it had gained 12bhp over last time so was curious. I kept the car for a week and wrote a few maps for it with the net result that we gained 18bhp over and above the stage 2 car (full exhaust) it had on it.

I rang Milltek, asked that I wanted to develop a RHD manifold but as the cost of developing manifolds is so high and everyone else who looked at it said that it wasn't possible due to the RHD car steering column being smack in the way. So I called SS (who make the RHD version) and said if they were prepared to work with us in the design and give us WW exclusivity then we would drive a car down to Italy and work with them.

The following month I drove my CSL to SS in Italy (via Spa, hehe) and we sat down to design the RHD version.

The initial investigation was right, the steering column is smack in the way so simply using a LHD version was out (unsurprisingly) so we took the decision to extend the primaries to give the engien more torque lower down the rev range. With the stage 3 cars (cams) all the power is at the top end and I wanted to get torque lower in the range to 'fill in' this power band rather than extend it further. My car already had cams fitted.

Fast forwarded about 2 months and multiple plane trips to SS and we agreed the final design and made the first 5 up. These went stright on our CSL Cup cars (we couldnt use them on some as they were standard class) and the ffect was dramatic. An immediate 10-12bhp gain with the stage 2 map and 8-10bhp on a standard car with standard map. We then spent a few weeks devloping new mapping with the same peak result as the French car - 18-20bhp but importantly an extra 18-20lb or torque between 4000-5600rpm, not surprising seeing as we'd extended the primaries by over 48mm. The tapered design maxmises airflow from the block to the extent that unmapped the car takes a few second for the o2 sensors to adjust fueling (only a few seconds, the BMW ECU is pretty good) so even unmapped the gains are immedaite and clear. Once to map the fuling to take into account the extra airflow it is pretty dramatic.

Have a look at the Snetterton video between me and Nick Foster. Both these cars have identical cams, engines and aero. The only difference between them is that Nicks car had KW suspension and standard manifold and mine had Motons and the SS/TMS manifold. Its clear from the video that my car with the Motons get the power down better from all the corners compared to the KW shod car but have a look down the back straight, I pull another 2/3 car lenghts towards the end.

As regards Shimmys comment on cams, well fitting cams is a shed load more than the mainfold. For a start the only cams really worth fitting are the 285/280 ones (we've tried all the others and these are the best by a country mile) but to fit those you need to fit uprated rockers and retainers so the cost is nearly 3 times the manifold. This is why we've swapped our stages round, stage 3 used to be the cams now its the manifold which lets face it is a benign upgrade (ie its releasing power not making it work harder as with cams) and when you come to sell the car sell the manifold sepaerately.

The Gorilla · 04-03-2010, 11:14 AM

Hi,

I think the CSL is about 355 BHP ish although
have made a few changes which may
have altered it by 2-3 BHP.

Ie AC deleted, etc.

The CSL engine in the E30 M3, no cats
twin 60mm Exhausts, only one box,
running on Motec M880 made
365 BHP on the Dyno and it was
pulled back a bit at the top, now 355 ish
to give a bit more grunt lower down.

Will 1600 pounds worth of Super Sprint
S/S give me 10 BHP more, I very much doubt
it.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Thorney · 04-03-2010, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gorilla

Hi,

I think the CSL is about 355 BHP ish although
have made a few changes which may
have altered it by 2-3 BHP.

Ie AC deleted, etc.

The CSL engine in the E30 M3, no cats
twin 60mm Exhausts, only one box,
running on Motec M880 made
365 BHP on the Dyno and it was
pulled back a bit at the top, now 355 ish
to give a bit more grunt lower down.

Will 1600 pounds worth of Super Sprint
S/S give me 10 BHP more, I very much doubt
it.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Entitled to your opinion of course. However I'm happy to refund anyone (applies to all of our upgrades) if its doesn't do what we say it does - same applies to any business really.

The Gorilla · 04-03-2010, 11:25 AM

Hi,

Derek Musch at Musch Motorsport
had a S54 almost to full works spec
here is a pic of a BMW Motorsport
Header.

http://www.musch-motorsport.com/projecten.php?id=8

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Thorney · 04-03-2010, 11:27 AM

Yeah we know Musch, nice guys, we are working together on a few things actually.

**glendog74** · 04-03-2010, 11:32 AM

Some interesting info from JT and The Gorilla.

John, would my car with cat-back SS system see any benefit from a SS manifold? I would rather keep the cats standard ideally - would this restrict flow and therefore additional power?

TVM

The Gorilla · 04-03-2010, 12:59 PM

Hi,

Thorney- I am in no way trying to undermine
anybody's business and I am sure you have
full confidence in the products you use, sell,
and fit to the satisfaction of many customers.

Its just my opinion, and its that as I am not Racing
where every last tenth counts, then what does
a 8-10 BHP gain costing 1600.00 on an engine
that is already falling of its tourqe curve at over
7000 rpm really do for me on your average
Track Day.

I have said it before, and your comment on the
Cam Shafts puts its all into real world perspective,
there are no cheap real power gains for
a S54 engine much past 360/370 BHP.

Its always good to kick these things around
and I am sure that there are those that will not
agree with me, and thats fine.

Musch works with KK, your work with
Musch, small world, would'nt want to
paint it though.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

04-03-2010, 11:11 AM	#14
Thorney S5 - Full Throttle Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 469 Casino cash: $3876	I'm sure you can filter through the sales mode here but genuinely this is the best power modification I've done for the CSL. The story is this, I tested a couple of RHD cars that came over here for remaps (usual full exhaust, stock headers) and all same as LHD ones we've done. Then about a year later the same customer came back (he 's from France) with the SS header and wanted the car looked over again. I ran it on the dyno (same map) and it had gained 12bhp over last time so was curious. I kept the car for a week and wrote a few maps for it with the net result that we gained 18bhp over and above the stage 2 car (full exhaust) it had on it. I rang Milltek, asked that I wanted to develop a RHD manifold but as the cost of developing manifolds is so high and everyone else who looked at it said that it wasn't possible due to the RHD car steering column being smack in the way. So I called SS (who make the RHD version) and said if they were prepared to work with us in the design and give us WW exclusivity then we would drive a car down to Italy and work with them. The following month I drove my CSL to SS in Italy (via Spa, hehe) and we sat down to design the RHD version. The initial investigation was right, the steering column is smack in the way so simply using a LHD version was out (unsurprisingly) so we took the decision to extend the primaries to give the engien more torque lower down the rev range. With the stage 3 cars (cams) all the power is at the top end and I wanted to get torque lower in the range to 'fill in' this power band rather than extend it further. My car already had cams fitted. Fast forwarded about 2 months and multiple plane trips to SS and we agreed the final design and made the first 5 up. These went stright on our CSL Cup cars (we couldnt use them on some as they were standard class) and the ffect was dramatic. An immediate 10-12bhp gain with the stage 2 map and 8-10bhp on a standard car with standard map. We then spent a few weeks devloping new mapping with the same peak result as the French car - 18-20bhp but importantly an extra 18-20lb or torque between 4000-5600rpm, not surprising seeing as we'd extended the primaries by over 48mm. The tapered design maxmises airflow from the block to the extent that unmapped the car takes a few second for the o2 sensors to adjust fueling (only a few seconds, the BMW ECU is pretty good) so even unmapped the gains are immedaite and clear. Once to map the fuling to take into account the extra airflow it is pretty dramatic. Have a look at the Snetterton video between me and Nick Foster. Both these cars have identical cams, engines and aero. The only difference between them is that Nicks car had KW suspension and standard manifold and mine had Motons and the SS/TMS manifold. Its clear from the video that my car with the Motons get the power down better from all the corners compared to the KW shod car but have a look down the back straight, I pull another 2/3 car lenghts towards the end. As regards Shimmys comment on cams, well fitting cams is a shed load more than the mainfold. For a start the only cams really worth fitting are the 285/280 ones (we've tried all the others and these are the best by a country mile) but to fit those you need to fit uprated rockers and retainers so the cost is nearly 3 times the manifold. This is why we've swapped our stages round, stage 3 used to be the cams now its the manifold which lets face it is a benign upgrade (ie its releasing power not making it work harder as with cams) and when you come to sell the car sell the manifold sepaerately. __________________ http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk

04-03-2010, 11:27 AM	#18
Thorney S5 - Full Throttle Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 469 Casino cash: $3876	Yeah we know Musch, nice guys, we are working together on a few things actually. __________________ http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk

04-03-2010, 11:32 AM	#19
glendog74 CSL Register Uber-poster! Tetris Champion! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornwall Posts: 8,861 Casino cash: $32299	Some interesting info from JT and The Gorilla. John, would my car with cat-back SS system see any benefit from a SS manifold? I would rather keep the cats standard ideally - would this restrict flow and therefore additional power? TVM __________________ Cha'mone Mother F**ker!

04-03-2010, 10:57 AM	#11
shane@mbtech CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: warrington Posts: 5,419 Casino cash: $19783	My headers are on and its being mapped as I type, I will let you all know the results. Although mine is a bog standard M3 so Im only expecting 370 max, coupled with my full system and carbon airbox, csl spec except for the cams. But put a standard csl on a dyno and it will not be 360bhp prob 345-350. People do get drawn into peak power talk, A well mapped 345bhp peak will beat a poor mapped 370bhp peak powered car, esp on track. Its all in the mapping.

04-03-2010, 11:14 AM	#15
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, I think the CSL is about 355 BHP ish although have made a few changes which may have altered it by 2-3 BHP. Ie AC deleted, etc. The CSL engine in the E30 M3, no cats twin 60mm Exhausts, only one box, running on Motec M880 made 365 BHP on the Dyno and it was pulled back a bit at the top, now 355 ish to give a bit more grunt lower down. Will 1600 pounds worth of Super Sprint S/S give me 10 BHP more, I very much doubt it. Regards, The Gorilla.

04-03-2010, 11:25 AM	#17
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, Derek Musch at Musch Motorsport had a S54 almost to full works spec here is a pic of a BMW Motorsport Header. http://www.musch-motorsport.com/projecten.php?id=8 Regards, The Gorilla.

04-03-2010, 12:59 PM	#20
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, Thorney- I am in no way trying to undermine anybody's business and I am sure you have full confidence in the products you use, sell, and fit to the satisfaction of many customers. Its just my opinion, and its that as I am not Racing where every last tenth counts, then what does a 8-10 BHP gain costing 1600.00 on an engine that is already falling of its tourqe curve at over 7000 rpm really do for me on your average Track Day. I have said it before, and your comment on the Cam Shafts puts its all into real world perspective, there are no cheap real power gains for a S54 engine much past 360/370 BHP. Its always good to kick these things around and I am sure that there are those that will not agree with me, and thats fine. Musch works with KK, your work with Musch, small world, would'nt want to paint it though. Regards, The Gorilla.