Real world difference between an M3 and a CSL...

[DuncanR]

Originally Posted by shimmy

i like M Track

I should have used M track !! FFS

[DuncanR]

Originally Posted by titan

If you were going to completely strip (ie devalue, or "ruin" to some) a car,

I say Colonel !! .... I bought it like that

[funtime]

Originally Posted by toofastforyou

i remember when the csl was released and so many people sold them back to the dealer cos they couldnt see what all the fuss was about. until of course people realised that comparing the two is like comparing chalk and cheese.

i have been driving the e46 chassis for 10 years. i have owned 5 e46 m3s, 2 at the same time! i had the coupe first, then the vert, and then a csl with the vert.

i tuned both the coupe and the vert with: tein edfc suspension (i know but it was back in the day!), gruppe m ram air and ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, dms remap, rear differential 3.9:1, rogue pulleys, front and rear ac shnitzer strut braces (vert doesnt fit rear strut brace) and both with 100 shot of nos. the coupe i sold to my cousin so it was always close by. the first csl i got i put tein edfc suspension, gruppe m ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, front and rear strut brace, rear differential 3.9:1 and dms remap. no nos.

the vert could keep up with the coupe no problem except when taking bends at 120mph+. in fact 0-40mph the vert was the fastest out of all of them as it is heavier and could get the power down better.

the coupe kept up with the csl but not easily, and eventually the csl would lose the coupe. there is a reason why a stock csl is 32secs quicker round the ring than a stock e46 m3 coupe, and only 2 secs slower than the e92 m3 gts (all 3 cars driven by the same driver horst von saurma before any of you start going on about them not being driven by drivers of equal talent).
its not just the steering rack or the extra power or the suspension or the weight loss- its the whole package. all the mods work in perfect harmony to provide the driver with one of the most enthralling, connected driving experiences around.

yes you can tune a coupe to be as fast or even faster than a csl, but do the same to a csl and the tuned coupe wont see which way you went in the csl. the money you will spend to make the coupe equal to a stock csl, you might as well buy a csl. even then it still wont be as good as the csl has been modified by bmw to be very special, if you think you can do a better job with the coupe, by all means try. the saying so close yet so far springs to mind.

Thanks for that, sounds like you've had some pretty serious M3's - more tuned than I'd ever go... and the end result is the CSL still comes out on top!

[funtime]

Originally Posted by titan

I've had two M3s and now a CSL.

Being honest - "real world" difference in terms of A to B on the roads? Nothing really assuming both M3 and CSL have same tyres. On the roads you don't (shouldn't?) be reaching the limits of brakes. The "real world experience" is different though, CSL just sounds more raw which adds to the illusion of speed.

Track? Well, both cars need modifying to make them sustainable on track. I'd argue that if you stripped both cars, same tyres/suspension/brakes then again, going to be fook all in it.

The deciding factor is just working out what you want it for, how much cash you have etc. The CSL is a rare beast on the roads whereas E46 are still very common. If you like the idea of taking good care of a car and having something different, CSL is ace. Although bear in mind that if used as a daily driver you're going to be far more narked if someone dings it in a carpark etc. You also can't get away from the impressive price hike a CSL demands over its equivalent mileage/condition M3.

You mentioned the girlfriend - remember that CSL seats don't adjust and the suspension can seem hard compared to modern armchairs so this may not win any favours.

If you were going to completely strip (ie devalue, or "ruin" to some) a car, do it with an M3. If you want a fast road car that looks the business and is also capable on track, CSL with brakes/suspension will be hard to beat.

Although - I did the Andy Walsh carlimits day yesterday with my brother. On Andy's "circuit" he punted the CSL round in 52 seconds, and my brothers crappy little 1.8 mx5 in 54 seconds. His circuit is essentially doing short blasts between cones and back again, so isn't representative of a track, but is probably similar to blasting between the roundabouts at milton keynes. Makes you think....

Anyhow, sounds like you want a decent ride for the road, either will do that nicely.

That has to be the most contradictory view so far, interesting that you think they'd be nothing in it if the same mods were applied to both cars, however I think that the crucial point is 'stripping'. I don't want to 'strip' my car and only then would you minimise the difference between the two as the weight would be a lot closer. Without stripping the M3 I wouldn't get anywhere near the weight of a CSL, which is essentially the key to track performance.... is this me back tracking and starting to go for the CSL?!?

As for the circuit you mention, a 52 second lap would make for a reasonably small track like you say, which is not what the CSL and neither the M3 is suited to. I'd imagine something like a Clio cup would have been as quick if not quicker than a CSL on a tight track - I certainly struggled with a few fettled ones on the weekend at Silverstone in the wet!

Originally Posted by shimmy

Tyres maybe 1/3

Weight 1/3

Suspension 1/3

I would agree with you in pointing out it's unlikely to just be down to the tyres, however I'd say it's much more to do with the weight than the suspension surely? (assuming the CSL suspension is standard)

Originally Posted by titan

Tyres. Pretty sure they test the cars as you'd expect to buy them from the dealer and I'm almost 100% they ran the CSL round the 'ring on cups.

32 seconds is less than half a second per corner given there are so many of the damn things :-)

Originally Posted by DuncanR

You can drive mine if you are around this area funtime ... me and your GF can wait and eat shit sandwiches until you come back ..... best make quite a few of them sandwiches !!

Duncan, if your serious about that then I wouldn't mind taking you up on the offer, providing there's nobody much closer to me. When I mention the girlfriend and her take on the situation - it was only in relation to a 'stripped out' M3 track car with no carpets etc... she would have no problem with the CSL whatsoever!

[still no worries]

when looking for my csl i test drove an e46 m3 first and was disappointed, (my 330 was half the price ) then i found the csl and could not believe the difference, mine 2 days later.
also if you spend 5k on a 10k e46 m3 it will worth about 10k.

[funtime]

Originally Posted by DuncanR

I should have used M track !! FFS

Have you had an off Duncan?

Originally Posted by still no worries

when looking for my csl i test drove an e46 m3 first and was disappointed, (my 330 was half the price ) then i found the csl and could not believe the difference, mine 2 days later.
also if you spend 5k on a 10k e46 m3 it will worth about 10k.

Yes I realise that the car wouldn't be worth any more when I sold it, but I'd be silly to sell it with any modifications I'd done still on the car. Everything I've listed is fully reversible, and providing I brought most of it second had to start with, I would loose a minimal amount of money on it.

Although the CSL is not going to depreciate, my M3 has almost bottomed out now and will go very slowly from here..so I wouldn't stand to loose much.

[DuncanR]

Originally Posted by funtime

Duncan, if your serious about that then I wouldn't mind taking you up on the offer, providing there's nobody much closer to me. When I mention the girlfriend and her take on the situation - it was only in relation to a 'stripped out' M3 track car with no carpets etc... she would have no problem with the CSL whatsoever!

you obviously havent seen mine then !! ..best not bring her ! No problem if your business travels bring you this far, there are others closer ...you know who you are !! "Dont tell him Pike".. lazy fookers ...give the lad a ride !

[glendog74]

Tyres do play a big part - on a long track with many corners like the Ring.

My first 3 Ring weekends with the CSL were running on PS2s - and i was up to an ok enough pace by then circa 8:40 average BTG during TF sessions.

I tried Cups for the first time on my 4th visit and immediately i dropped 20 seconds on a lap. Ok, i also had APs fitted by this stage but i do not feel that the brakes contributed much in the way of reducing the laptime, just that the brakes did not judder or overheat anymore!

Slowly been 'nibbling' away at BTG times since then...

[DazBlackCSL]

Originally Posted by glendog74

Slowly been 'nibbling' away at cheese since then...

Think we do need to a group buy on cheese again

[DuncanR]

Originally Posted by glendog74

Slowly been 'nibbling' away at BTG times since then...

Make sure you nibble mate .... try taking a big bite .... and your CSL will bite your ass !! ... make a difference from Daz biting the fooker !