S54 stroker kit

[flow]

Hi all ,

What are you toughts about this ?

http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---s54-34l--35l-premium-stroker-kit-p757.aspx

I'm looking for some more power and then i found the VAC stroker kit but there is not much info on the internet about this .
According to VAC motorsports they have a few race teams running the kit and the cars are running strong and without problems .

With good cams/tune/headwork/ compression ratio they claim numbers around 450bhp and 330 ft-lbs of torque .
That is not my goal anything above 400bhp would be great .

[_Nathan_]

Why stop at 3.4?

http://www.kohlerracing.se/page.php?page=bmw_-_motordelar

3.7 :thumbs:

[DuncanR]

Wonder if Murketts will still honour my BMW Warranty with that fitted !! ;)... sounds fun on the face of it ...

[flow]

Why stop at 3.4?

http://www.kohlerracing.se/page.php?page=bmw_-_motordelar

3.7 :thumbs:

I think 3.7 would be too much .
I want it still to be safe and reliable .

[shimmy]

I think 3.7 would be too much .
I want it still to be safe and reliable .


jeez, does this affect the bore as the HG is already 0.00000001mm thinck between cylinders anyway!:smokin:

[_Nathan_]

Think 3.4 is effectively just a crank change as bore remains the same?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Is this for a road biased Car or
a Car that does a lot of Track
work ?

I would go and drive a stroked
S54 before you do anything else.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[lawsy]

jeez, does this affect the bore as the HG is already 0.00000001mm thinck between cylinders anyway!:smokin:


Usually done on the stroke shim, as per the terminonlogy, the stroke becomes bigger which in turn uses more of the cylinder. Thus increasing cylinder capacity.

Different crank, pistons and rods used.

Rebore is different, using same size rods, but bigger pistons, same size crank etc, thus creating more cylinder space, some engines, such as the M3 will not accomodate a rebore due to size.

I did consider a full build and stroker before selling the CSL, but if I do it it would be on normal M3.


@Gorilla

What do they drive like? Good on track but shit on road?

I must admit N/A 450 bhp in an M3 sounds good.

[shimmy]

I did consider a full build and stroker before selling the CSL, but if I do it it would be on normal M3.


I must admit N/A 450 bhp in an M3 sounds good.

I guess good thing is that you only have mainly engine mods to do, not other bits and bobs like you get on a charger engine or transplan of V10 or V8

Just need a donor engine that has some like left in it?

[northernjim]

Would increasing the stroke not limit the top end revs?

[DuncanR]

Just need a donor engine that has some like left in it?

Like we almost had ??? :banghead:

[flow]

Hi,

Is this for a road biased Car or
a Car that does a lot of Track
work ?

I would go and drive a stroked
S54 before you do anything else.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

That is the problem who has got a stroked s54 ?
My CSL is mainly a track car but i drive it to the track and the ring .

Have you driven one ? if yes what is your opinion ?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Sven Kruger at KK Automobile used to have a
3.4 Stroker CSL.

www.kk-automobile.de

They do the 3.4 [3.3] and the 3.7.

Never sure if it was his or somebody else
in the company, or a Customers car that
was sort of borrowed back.

E.mail them, it might be worth a shot.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[nick///M3]

get same size pistons but with a 12:1 compression( make sure they are lighter than oem ones!!! ), 288/280 cams, a set of cats from hjs 200ccpi, and a very good ecu tune and you will be fine...




my other suggestion if you like to hear it, is leave it alone and spend the money in brakes, suspension,track wheels, and drive the hell out of it!!

[lawsy]

get same size pistons but with a 12:1 compression( make sure they are lighter than oem ones!!! ), 288/280 cams, a set of cats from hjs 200ccpi, and a very good ecu tune and you will be fine...




my other suggestion if you like to hear it, is leave it alone and spend the money in brakes, suspension,track wheels, and drive the hell out of it!!


I done that, but it lacked grunt out of slow speed corners, and straight line speed was not impressive, the rest of the package was great though.

[flow]

get same size pistons but with a 12:1 compression( make sure they are lighter than oem ones!!! ), 288/280 cams, a set of cats from hjs 200ccpi, and a very good ecu tune and you will be fine...




my other suggestion if you like to hear it, is leave it alone and spend the money in brakes, suspension,track wheels, and drive the hell out of it!!

My car has got 2 sets of trackwheels , AP's al around , half cage , SS stepped headers , SS mid section , SS race backbox , map , Billstein , recaro profi carbon bucket seat ,... .
So i'm looking fo the next step .

My car has got 70k miles , so for this winter i wanted to make sure the block is alright and change some parts ( oil pump , water pump , alternator ect.. ) check the headgasket , bottem end .
So why not rebuild the block with the stroker kit so i'm safe for a couple of more years .

The other option is to buy a 997 GT3 but i like my CSL too much , so instead of giving 80k € for a GT3 i invest some euro's in the egine so i can suprise some GT3 owners on the racetrack . :supz:

[azrael]

The other option is to buy a 997 GT3 but i like my CSL too much , so instead of giving 80k € for a GT3 i invest some euro's in the egine so i can suprise some GT3 owners on the racetrack . :supz:

Sounds like the honourable thing to do :thumbs:

[gpowercsl]

My car has got 2 sets of trackwheels , AP's al around , half cage , SS stepped headers , SS mid section , SS race backbox , map , Billstein , recaro profi carbon bucket seat ,... .
So i'm looking fo the next step .

My car has got 70k miles , so for this winter i wanted to make sure the block is alright and change some parts ( oil pump , water pump , alternator ect.. ) check the headgasket , bottem end .
So why not rebuild the block with the stroker kit so i'm safe for a couple of more years .

The other option is to buy a 997 GT3 but i like my CSL too much , so instead of giving 80k € for a GT3 i invest some euro's in the egine so i can suprise some GT3 owners on the racetrack . :supz:

ever considered going FI either supercharger or turbocharger? Either would see a GT3 eat your dust.:supz:

[Rutkowski]

This past week i have been researching this subject thoroughly!!

The Kelleners S54 with stroker kit M3 makes some interesting numbers. 0 - 62mph in 4.2 seconds. 0 - 160mph in 10.8 seconds. The compression is 12.1

The crank that has been used is the OEM BMW one iirc.

I am really, really tempted as achieving a genuine 400bhp would be possible. :thumbs:

[_Nathan_]

How is it a stroker with the OEM crank?

[_Nathan_]

Think there is something wrong with those figures too...

160mph = 257kmh
Veyron 0-250kmh time: 13.3

So either increasing compression make it really, really fast, or it is a 0-160kmh time (0-100mph) in which case it seems a bit slow?

[nick///M3]

My car has got 2 sets of trackwheels , AP's al around , half cage , SS stepped headers , SS mid section , SS race backbox , map , Billstein , recaro profi carbon bucket seat ,... .
So i'm looking fo the next step .

My car has got 70k miles , so for this winter i wanted to make sure the block is alright and change some parts ( oil pump , water pump , alternator ect.. ) check the headgasket , bottem end .
So why not rebuild the block with the stroker kit so i'm safe for a couple of more years .

The other option is to buy a 997 GT3 but i like my CSL too much , so instead of giving 80k € for a GT3 i invest some euro's in the egine so i can suprise some GT3 owners on the racetrack . :supz:
ouch! i did not have any idea that you are passed that point !!! my bad...

well if you are not really happy with what you got, and have the extra cash then buy a gt3...
don't try to push the S54 more n/a...

i haven't seen a stroker that actually made some good results and i am on several boards reading...

and i am all about n/a as you can see in my sig...
after spending lots and lots of time on this topic i am not going to try an persuade another person into doing it...

if you want more power from the S54 then charge it...simple as that...

But when you have a csl...

other than that options are vac, kelleners, kk-automobile but i really can't say its working or not....

best of luck
Nick

[nick///M3]

I done that, but it lacked grunt out of slow speed corners, and straight line speed was not impressive, the rest of the package was great though.

you went with higher compression and cams and it was still low?

[nick///M3]

This past week i have been researching this subject thoroughly!!

The Kelleners S54 with stroker kit M3 makes some interesting numbers. 0 - 62mph in 4.2 seconds. 0 - 160mph in 10.8 seconds. The compression is 12.1

The crank that has been used is the OEM BMW one iirc.

I am really, really tempted as achieving a genuine 400bhp would be possible. :thumbs:

i think you have some numbers wrong here...

0-100km/h ( 62mph ) 4,2...seems too much but with decent tarmac can be done..
0-160km/h ( 98mph ) 10,8 that is the correct number....and kind of slow if you have 4,2 0-100km/h...

10,8 to 250km/h is certainly not for an n/a S54 engine car.......

no way this is happening....

[_Nathan_]

I know of a couple of 3.4 strokers that make good numbers (420-430), but ultimately don't seem to be much, if any, more than proper 3.2s. Just seems 2 ways of going about the same job, higher RPM screamer or more grunty but lower revving?

[glendog74]

ouch! i did not have any idea that you are passed that point !!! my bad...

well if you are not really happy with what you got, and have the extra cash then buy a gt3...
don't try to push the S54 more n/a...

i haven't seen a stroker that actually made some good results and i am on several boards reading...

and i am all about n/a as you can see in my sig...
after spending lots and lots of time on this topic i am not going to try an persuade another person into doing it...

if you want more power from the S54 then charge it...simple as that...

But when you have a csl...

other than that options are vac, kelleners, kk-automobile but i really can't say its working or not....

best of luck
Nick

Good advice :thumbs:

[Thorney]

Whilst there are a few stroked 3.2 cars racing generally the view is that the gains they offer are not significant on track to justify it. Power is gained but you drop torque which also makes the conversion less dramatic on a road car. Cams make a difference but if you want over 400bhp you need to run an aftermarket ecu and on a road car that creates its own issues.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

The very paramiters of what a 'Racing Car'
needs to do should tell those interested that increasing
stroke on the S54 is taking the engine in the wrong direction.

While a stroked S54 might be nice on some unrestricted
Autobhan or Route 66 freeway, its not going to deliver
its promise on a Race Track.

For a Road car then maybe, but as a means to increase
power on a S54 Track / Race car, spend the money as
'Nick' has already suggested,on chassis dynamics, weight saving,
etc and see proper gains for your money.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[_Nathan_]

I'd have guessed that a 3.4 producing 420bhp might be a little less stressed than a 3.2 producing the same though? Less revs may well mean better reliability which could be seen as a good attribute in a race car.

I may be completely wrong though!

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Nathan- As with any Race Car or Race series
its not down the straights where Races are
won and lost, its around the twisty bits.

Reliability aside, most would agree that the
best car in F1 at the moment is the Red Bull,
with a Renault engine.

Is this the fastest car down the straight or
through the speed trap, no, does the Renault
engine make the biggest amount of power no,
does the renault engine Rev, yes, will the
Renault engine over rev past 18,000 rpm
yes, is the Renault Engine power band
well matched to the gearbox ratios, yes.

So back to the S54, for Track or Race your
much better off with an engine that will
rev to 8500 / 8750, where the power band
and rev drop can be better matched to
gearbox ratios, which stroking the S54
does not do.

Stroking reduces revs, wrong direction, and also
moves the engine power band/ rev drop backwards
meaning your going to always be wanting to shift
down not up to keep the engine well on the cams.

If I was racing today, I would be using a S54 3.0LTR,
yes they do exist, but they are shorter stroke, longer
rod engines.

Shorter stroke Engine would rev much quicker,
and the longer rods would increase the engine torque.

That is why I said that 'Stroking' the S54 is taking it in the
wrong direction for Racing.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[_Nathan_]

I was assuming same chassis so twisty bits should be the same in both imaginary cars, likewise you can assume that the gearing would be matched to the engine through a different gearset and \ or final drive. I was simply wondering if a more torquey 3.4 engine revving lower might potentially be more reliable than a 3.2 screamer making exactly the same power?

F1 engines are limited to 18000 rpm so the Renault can't rev past that and I assume all others would rev to that same limited maximum? I suspect a lot of Red Bull's dominance is not to do with the engine (after all Renault also have a Renault engine) but simply that Red Bull have got Adrian Newey...

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Nathan- equal cars, around a Track, save the engines.

Revs on the S54 is good.

A stroker kit does not give you revs on the S54.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Rutkowski]

Gents - i meant 0 - 160km/h in 10.8 seconds, sorry.

As for the 'stroked' S54 - i personally have given up on this idea. It'll be Schricks 288 / 280 with larger throttle bodies and CSL exhaust valves. :thumbs:

[NZ_M3]

I'd have guessed that a 3.4 producing 420bhp might be a little less stressed than a 3.2 producing the same though? Less revs may well mean better reliability which could be seen as a good attribute in a race car.

I may be completely wrong though!

You are Nathan.

All to do with Rod stroke ratio and how square the motor is.

The perfect rod stroke ratio is 1.75:1 if I remember correctly

Then you get into over square and under square rod stroke which exerts different type of stress on different areas of the motor. As a general rule, an over square motor stresses the crank and an under square motor stresses the cylinder (if memory serves haha ..)



Stroking reduces revs

Shorter stroke Engine would rev much quicker,
and the longer rods would increase the engine torque.



Without looking up on rod stroke ratios of the S54 that's not entirely correct Mr Gorilla - see my above reply to Nathan.

An under squared motor is good for revs and an over square motor good for torque.

Is the S54 over or under squared?

I suspect a lot of Red Bull's dominance is not to do with the engine (after all Renault also have a Renault engine) but simply that Red Bull have got Adrian Newey...

Hitting the nail on the head !! Red Bull without Andrian Newey's designs = mid field in F1 even with Vettle behind the wheel.


And just to be a little bit on topic ... if I wanted to go faster in the CSL, I'd pull the S54 out and put the S85B40 in. Lighter motor, sits further back than the S54 and instant 420hp without stressing the motor. Then I'd take as much weight out of the car, corner balance and slap the best suspension I can get my hands on and spend a lot of time setting it up.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Rod ratio should ideally be between 1.7 - 2.1.

Oversquare is where piston diam is greater than stroke,
and undersquare is the revearse.

Stroking will always reduce the max revs of
an engine due to the vibration and resonance
created at the crank due to using long rods
with what is already quite a long stroke.

Longer rods reduce the side load into the bores
as the crank/rod angle is reduced, but the trade
off is that longer rods flex more and thus harmonic
vibration increases.

Harmonic resonance will destroy an engine in secs.

The S50 B30 [E36 3.0ltr] is claimed by many Racers
to be the better engine than the S50 B32 [E36 3.2 Ltrs].

Vanos aside, the reason is that the 3.0 is 85.8 mm stroke
with 85.5mm bore V the 91mm stroke of the 3.2.

The ''short stroke'' 3.0 ltr when fitted with the 3.2 head
which has larger ports, thus better flow capacity makes
for a much better Race engine than the 'stroked' 3.2.

The S54 is 91mm stroke with 87mm bore thus if it
was De-stroked to 85.5mm with the 87mm bore it
would be just under 3.0 ltr but would pull, with the
correct internals, circa 9000 rpm.

Although the rod length of the short stroke [3.0ltr] S54 would
increase from 139mm to 144.5 this would give a Rod ratio of
1.66.

To take this one stage further, you could raise the wrist
pin in the pistons, use a short skirt piston to reduce
friction and thus help with piston cooling, move up the
top piston land [ring] by 2mm towards the piston deck,
anodize the top land to assist with
piston cooling, and then use a longer rod at say
149mm which would give you rod ratio of 1.71.

You would then have a 3.0 ltr S54 with a 1.71 rod
ratio which would be oversquare and rev to 9000 rpm.
Short stroke with long rod.

I would take that over a Stroked S54 anyday for Track work.

Even the S65 is a ''short stroke' V8.

It does not make much more Torque than a good S54 but
it will and does rev.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[glendog74]

My head hurts :smt022

[AlexGTT]

My head hurts :smt022

:smt056 Mine also.:hahaha:

I agree with Gorilla. I use the same principles when redesigning historic race engines in my work. We reduce crank stroke, move wrist pin hieght up, have short skirt pistons and slightly longer rods. Only difference is we make short deck blocks because the stoke is so much bigger than bore and we are fighting to get as close to square as possible but try to stop rod length going crazy. The engines I work on were designed to be very torquey with less concern for outright power.

This make the motors much better at higher revs and greatly increases engine life.

[DuncanR]

Hi,


The S50 B30 [E36 3.0ltr] is claimed by many Racers
to be the better engine than the S50 B32 [E36 3.2 Ltrs].

Vanos aside, the reason is that the 3.0 is 85.8 mm stroke
with 85.5mm bore V the 91mm stroke of the 3.2.

The ''short stroke'' 3.0 ltr when fitted with the 3.2 head
which has larger ports, thus better flow capacity makes
for a much better Race engine than the 'stroked' 3.2.


The Gorilla.

Im looking at getting something similar i think, not being very clued up on BMW's of course, this from an email i received about my possible E36 M3 GT project quote.

"The engine mods were done by ??????, putting an Evo head and pistons on 3 litre crank and block, and shrick cams. Good for 340 bhp or so. ?????never thought of doing it himself so rubbished it. Those modded 3 litre engines are gems and are unburstable."

[Thorney]

Yeah Gorilla has the point, most E36 racers prefer the mixed unit of 3 and 3.2 combined, nit event hat expensive.

We looked into stroking the S54 and came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it, especially when more power was available via after market ecu mapping etc etc.

We are now looking at the S65 for the GT3 car, BMW have gone with a stroked version for the GTS which means we can use it, people like Turner already have stroked kits for the engine but ive not found anyone who has used one yet, meeting with engine builder next week to discuss the plans.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

I should also have added that,
the S50 B30 [E36 3.0Ltr] also has thicker
webs to the block, so the bottom end
is much more reliable than the
S50 B32 [E36 3.2 Evo.]

What does get really interesting is that
if you used a M52 engine,6 Pot Alloy Block,
so 40kgs less weight up front,
so much better handling and turn in, then
by converting it to S50 B30 M3 SPEC, as a Racer
in the States has, he is getting
304 BHP at the wheels, not Crank,
which at 155 kgs engine weight in
an E36 Shell would handle very well.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[alexk]

Hi,

I should also have added that,
the S50 B30 [E36 3.0Ltr] also has thicker
webs to the block, so the bottom end
is much more reliable than the
S50 B32 [E36 3.2 Evo.]

What does get really interesting is that
if you used a M52 engine,6 Pot Alloy Block,
so 40kgs less weight up front,
so much better handling and turn in, then
by converting it to S50 B30 M3 SPEC, as a Racer
in the States has, he is getting
304 BHP at the wheels, not Crank,
which at 155 kgs engine weight in
an E36 Shell would handle very well.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Hi Gorilla,

I have the M52B28TU engine in my Z3 coupe (indeed the block is aluminium).
Do you reckon I could fit the S50B32 cylinderhead and throttle butterflies ?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

AlexK- If you go to E46 Fanatics, that is where
the Chap with the M52 Engine did all the
work etc for his Race Car.

Really long thread, all detailed of what he did.

I did post in your Pics thread about some simple
mods you could do to gain more power.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[alexk]

Hi,

AlexK- If you go to E46 Fanatics, that is where
the Chap with the M52 Engine did all the
work etc for his Race Car.

Really long thread, all detailed of what he did.

I did post in your Pics thread about some simple
mods you could do to gain more power.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Gorilla I missed this post but today I found it !!!
Many thanks for your help !